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∂10-Aug-87 2322 BAGGINS@IBM.COM CLtl Natural Languages Subcommittee
Received: from IBM.COM by SAIL.STANFORD.EDU with TCP; 10 Aug 87 23:22:29 PDT
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 87 23:22:01 PDT
From: "Thomas Linden (Thom)" <baggins@ibm.com>
To: Common Lisp Natural Language Support mailing
<cl-natural-languages@sail.stanford.edu>
cc: "Richard P. Gabriel" <rpg@sail.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <870810.232201.baggins@IBM.com>
Subject: CLtl Natural Languages Subcommittee
Through the good graces of Dick Gabriel, we now have a mailing
list set up at sail (see To: above) for the National Languages
Subcommittee. From the last ANSI meeting, I have down as
committee members:
Thom Linden - baggins@ibm.com
Larry Masinter - Masinter.pa@xerox.com
Carl Hoffman - cwh@fuji.ila.dialnet.symbolics.com
Bob Kerns - rwk@scrc.symbolics.com
Duncan Missimer - (don't know netid)
Dave Mathews - dcm%hpfclp@hplabs.hp.com
Mike Beckerle - mike%acorn@oak.lcs.mit.edu
Send updates to the mailing list (eg. you're on the list
and should'nt be) to Dick. If anyone knows Duncan's netid,
please pass it along so he can be added to the distribution.
Just as a check, please acknowledge this message. Thus, I
will have some confidence we are actually connected.
I suspect with vacations underway, our conversation on NLS
won't begin until September (eg. I'll be out for the remainder of Aug).
But, starting in Sept, I would like to see us in an active mode.
The first order of business should be an acknowledgement note
sent to JEIDA. After that we need to agree on the scope of
our effort and the protocols we wish to follow .. eg.
we could follow the pattern set by the Cleanup Subcommittee
status reports and documentation or by the CommonLoops group.
Perhaps the first thing we should decide is our name and what
a proposal arising from our efforts would be called. I start
this off by suggesting:
National Languages Support (ie. NLS subcommittee) and
"Extensions to Common Lisp Character Handling"
Natural Languages is a nicer term as it doesn't seem to have
a connection to political boundaries. Unfortunately, it seems
heavily used in the linguistics field. Some folks use
DBCS for Double Byte Character Support but that seems clearly
tied to an implementation decision.
... well, these comments will hopefully test the networking.
I'll see you in a few weeks.
Regards,
Thom
∂11-Aug-87 1749 masinter.pa@Xerox.COM Re: CLtl Natural Languages Subcommittee
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Date: 11 Aug 87 15:16 PDT
From: masinter.pa@Xerox.COM
Subject: Re: CLtl Natural Languages Subcommittee
In-reply-to: "Thomas Linden (Thom)" <baggins@ibm.com>'s message of Mon,
10 Aug 87 23:22:01 PDT
To: baggins@ibm.com
cc: cl-natural-languages@sail.stanford.edu, rpg@sail.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <870811-172233-1210@Xerox>
I had hoped that this committee could deal also with the issue of font
and font attributes as well as character codes. I'd been filing things
under the heading of "Common Lisp Characters", since that seemed to have
the broader charter.
My comments at the last X3J13 committee is that, while there may still
be important reasons for retaining a user-visible distinction between
thin-simple-string and simple-string, there seemed to be little or no
reason to have any visible distinction between thin-string and string,
since the general string case, with displacement and the like, can be
implemented as efficiently.
This modification of the JEIDA proposal removes most of its complexity
while retaining most of its benefits.
∂11-Aug-87 1749 masinter.pa@Xerox.COM Re: CLtl Natural Languages Subcommittee
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Date: 11 Aug 87 15:16 PDT
From: masinter.pa@Xerox.COM
Subject: Re: CLtl Natural Languages Subcommittee
In-reply-to: "Thomas Linden (Thom)" <baggins@ibm.com>'s message of Mon,
10 Aug 87 23:22:01 PDT
To: baggins@ibm.com
cc: cl-natural-languages@sail.stanford.edu, rpg@sail.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <870811-173929-1259@Xerox>
I had hoped that this committee could deal also with the issue of font
and font attributes as well as character codes. I'd been filing things
under the heading of "Common Lisp Characters", since that seemed to have
the broader charter.
My comments at the last X3J13 committee is that, while there may still
be important reasons for retaining a user-visible distinction between
thin-simple-string and simple-string, there seemed to be little or no
reason to have any visible distinction between thin-string and string,
since the general string case, with displacement and the like, can be
implemented as efficiently.
This modification of the JEIDA proposal removes most of its complexity
while retaining most of its benefits.
∂14-Aug-87 1714 dcm%hpfclp@hplabs.HP.COM Re: CLtl Natural Languages Subcommittee
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To: cl-natural-languages@sail.stanford.edu
Cc: rpg@sail.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: CLtl Natural Languages Subcommittee
X-Mailer: mh6.5
In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 10 Aug 87 23:22:01 -0700.
<870810.232201.baggins@IBM.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 87 13:01:48 MST
From: Dave Matthews <dcm%hpfclp@hplabs.HP.COM>
Duncan Missimer's mail address is
missimer%hpcldbm@hplabs.hp.com
Please add him to the mailing list.
At HP we use the acronym NLS for Native Language Support - the ability
for a user to communicate with his/her machine in his/her native
language. This seemed more appropriate because there is not always a
singular mapping of languages to nationalities.
Dave Matthews
∂18-Aug-87 0557 RWK@YUKON.SCRC.Symbolics.COM Re: CLtl Natural Languages Subcommittee
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Date: Fri, 14 Aug 87 03:44 EDT
From: Robert W. Kerns <RWK@YUKON.SCRC.Symbolics.COM>
Subject: Re: CLtl Natural Languages Subcommittee
To: masinter.pa@Xerox.COM
cc: baggins@ibm.com, cl-natural-languages@sail.stanford.edu
In-Reply-To: <870811-172233-1210@Xerox>
Message-ID: <870814034421.9.RWK@WHITE-BIRD.SCRC.Symbolics.COM>
Date: 11 Aug 87 15:16 PDT
From: masinter.pa@Xerox.COM
I had hoped that this committee could deal also with the issue of font
and font attributes as well as character codes.
Yup. I plan to propose we delete 'em. Details later.
I'd been filing things
under the heading of "Common Lisp Characters", since that seemed to have
the broader charter.
My comments at the last X3J13 committee is that, while there may still
be important reasons for retaining a user-visible distinction between
thin-simple-string and simple-string, there seemed to be little or no
reason to have any visible distinction between thin-string and string,
since the general string case, with displacement and the like, can be
implemented as efficiently.
This is a lot easier for you or I to say, on our special Lisp engines,
than it is for those on "stock" hardware. But even for us, it's not
really true. Creating a large string of the wrong size, and then copying
the whole thing when a "fat" character comes along, could prove quite
expensive. And on our system, once that was done, every reference to that
string would be slowed down by an extra memory reference. Everybody else
would have to pay this price ALL the time, except when they can use simple
strings.
Don't forget that (AND STRING (NOT SIMPLE-STRING)) does NOT mean that
the string is displaced. It may be a non-displaced non-adjustable
string with a fill-pointer. What you're proposing really means changing
this so that, on stock architectures, (AND STRING (NOT SIMPLE-STRING))
implies that it's displaced, so that the data can be "fattened".
This modification of the JEIDA proposal removes most of its complexity
while retaining most of its benefits.
I don't think it removes the complexity; it introduces complexities of
its own. Of course, it also has benefits of its own. But I don't want
to waste time designing it unless we have some assurance that it really
isn't going to be a burden for the stock architectures, and the understanding
I have from the conversations I've had is that it would be a burden for them.
I'm about to leave until Labor Day. I'll have lots more stuff to send when
I get back.
∂30-Sep-87 1547 BAGGINS@IBM.COM Subcommittee name, scope, JEIDA response
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Date: Wed, 30 Sep 87 15:28:35 PDT
From: "Thomas Linden (Thom)" <baggins@ibm.com>
To: "Common Lisp Subcommittee" <cl-natural-languages@sail.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <870930.152835.baggins@IBM.com>
Subject: Subcommittee name, scope, JEIDA response
Greetings,
With my vacation and assignment change (Menlo to San Jose-Almaden)
and home moving in the past, I would like to renew our
conversatinos regarding our subcommittee.
I have seen notes on the net from Dave Matthews, Larry Masinter and
Bob Kerns. Hopefully the rest of the committee is on the mailing
list with a correct address (Carl, Duncan and Mike
please confirm you received a copy of this msg from
cl-natural-languages).
In this note, I would like to discuss the committee name, scope
and JEIDA response. I felt that Larry's suggestion of a broader
charter was a good one. Clearly, we will be mucking about in
data types, characters, strings and Input/Output with the character
data type being of central interest. Thus, we could name ourselves the
CL Character Subcommittee. Our scope would be to examine proposed
modifications to CLtL relating to the Character data type. This
includes the appropriate subtypes, type specifiers, predicates and
character and string functions as well as the roles of characters
in reading and printing Lisp objects.
One of our most pressing items will certainly be the proposal to
extend the CL character support to large character sets. (By the
way, I propose we call this ECS for extended character support and
avoid confusion over National/Natural/Native.
I believe ECS is quite important due to the JEIDA and now ISO
activities where the interest in this subject is high. First, we need
to send an acknowledgement to the Ida and the Kanji working group
for initiating this subject (and our committee). I have scratched
out the following; please comment freely and quickly. I would
like to transmit our message within the next two weeks.
-----Start Scratchings-----------------------------------------
To: JEIDA Kanji Working Group
Masayuki Ida
Takayasu Ito, chair, JEIDA Committee for Lisp Standardization
Taiichi Yuasa, chair, JEIDA Technical Working Group for Lisp
Standardization
From: ANSI X3J13 Character Subcommittee
The committee would like to acknowledge and applaud the efforts
of the JEIDA Kanji WG. The proposal, presented by Shiota-san at the
X3J13 June meeting in Boston, was so well received it
instigated the creation of our Subcommittee!
The subcommittee members are:
Thom Linden,chair (IBM Research)
Larry Masinter (XEROX Research)
Carl Hoffman (International Lisp Associates)
Bob Kerns (Symbolics)
Duncan Missimer (Hewlett-Packard)
Dave Matthews (Hewlett-Packard)
Mike Beckerle (Gold Hill)
Though, our committee will deal with various topics relating to
Common Lisp character support, the primary current topic will be
extensions to support the varied and multiple native character
sets. In particular, Common Lisp should be able to support
Kanji, Hanja, Hanzi, Chinese, German, French, etc. monolingual and
multilingual applications.
We look forward to working with the newly formed JEIDA and ISO
committees on a language design which is supportive of the
international community requirements and which provides
for a consistency across varied implementations and machine
architectures in the spirit of CLtL.
-----End Scratchings-------------------------------------------
∂09-Oct-87 1419 Masinter.pa@Xerox.COM Re: Subcommittee name, scope, JEIDA response
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Date: 9 Oct 87 14:19 PDT
From: Masinter.pa@Xerox.COM
Subject: Re: Subcommittee name, scope, JEIDA response
In-reply-to: "Thomas Linden (Thom)" <baggins@ibm.com>'s message of Wed,
30 Sep 87 15:28:35 PDT
To: baggins@ibm.com
cc: cl-natural-languages@sail.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <871009-141909-1605@Xerox>
One of the things we should be aware of is the other work in ANSI and
ISO on character encoding and character identification standards. I
understand there is some work in X3L2 and SC2 on multi-byte standards. I
don't think their work affects ours particularly, except that we should
probably say that if and when there is a standard for encodings, an
implementation should identify the character encoding used by an
implementation in *features* so that char-int and int-char can follow
the encoding.
There is also a ANSI X3V1, ISO SC18 WG 8, which apparently deals with
typography issues, but seems relatively irrelevant to the work at hand
here.
Are any members of JEIDA on cl-natural-languages@sail.stanford.edu?
I will forward in separate messages the cl-cleanup issues that interact
with Common Lisp characters.
∂09-Oct-87 1423 Masinter.pa@Xerox.COM [Issue: SHARPSIGN-BACKSLASH-BITS]
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Date: 9 Oct 87 14:22 PDT
From: Masinter.pa@Xerox.COM
Subject: [Issue: SHARPSIGN-BACKSLASH-BITS]
To: cl-natural-languages@sail.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <871009-142250-1623@Xerox>
This issue deals with characters in Common Lisp. There seems to be
general consensus for removing the "font" attribute from characters, and
some ambivalence about whether the "bits" attribute should remain in the
standard rather than in an optional extension. (As specified, they do
little harm, however.)
----- Begin Forwarded Messages -----
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YUKON.SCRC.Symbolics.COM via CHAOS with CHAOS-MAIL id 171Date: Fri, 27
Feb 87 19:51 EST
From: Kent M Pitman <KMP@STONY-BROOK.SCRC.Symbolics.COM>
Subject: SHARPSIGN-BACKSLASH-BITS
To: CL-Cleanup@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU
cc: KMP@STONY-BROOK.SCRC.Symbolics.COM
Message-ID: <870227195124.0.KMP@RIO-DE-JANEIRO.SCRC.Symbolics.COM>
Issue: SHARPSIGN-BACKSLASH-BITS
References: #\ (p354)
Category: CLARIFICATION
Edit history: Revision 1 by KMP 02/27/87
Problem Description:
The description of names for characters that has bits gives examples
without
clearly specifying the meaning of the bit names.
Proposal (SHARPSIGN-BACKSLASH-BITS:SHORT-AND-LONG):
It should be clearly stated at the appropriate point (currently on
p354)
that the names "C" and "CONTROL" mean control, "M" and "META" mean
meta,
"S" and "SUPER" mean "SUPER", and "H" and "HYPER" mean hyper. It
should
further specified that these can be mixed and matched, as in
"C-META-X".
Rationale:
We give examples of both styles, so both styles should be
well-defined.
If these are not going to be well-defined, there's no point in our
giving
examples of them.
Current Practice:
Most implementations support both short and long names to back up the
bit
names that they allow.
Some implementations accept only the short name. Others only the long
name.
Adoption Cost:
The cost of this change is very small.
Benefits:
If an input syntax is going to reliably exist, we need to say so.
Conversion Cost:
User code is not likely to be adversely affected. Most users will
likely
perceive this as a bug fix.
Aesthetics:
This doesn't much affect aesthetics one way or the other.
Discussion:
KMP thinks this is a good idea.
----- Next Message -----
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STONY-BROOK.SCRC.Symbolics.COM via CHAOS with CHAOS-MAIL id 82Date: Tue,
3 Mar 87 00:42 EST
From: David A. Moon <Moon@STONY-BROOK.SCRC.Symbolics.COM>
Subject: SHARPSIGN-BACKSLASH-BITS
To: CL-Cleanup@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU
In-Reply-To: <FAHLMAN.12282824063.BABYL@C.CS.CMU.EDU>
Message-ID: <870303004240.3.MOON@EUPHRATES.SCRC.Symbolics.COM>
Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1987 01:07 EST
From: "Scott E. Fahlman" <Fahlman@C.CS.CMU.EDU>
I support this proposal.
So do I.
I think that we should seriously consider flushing both the bit and
the
font attribute characters as part of the language spec.
Of course if we did that, the SHARPSIGN-BACKSLASH-BITS proposal would be
superseded, so you can't consistently support both. That's okay, nobody
is asking you to be consistent.
Removing bits and fonts wouldn't bother Symbolics. We don't use fonts,
and we wouldn't mind calling the bits feature part of our extensions to
Common Lisp rather than part of standard Common Lisp. However, it would
be a pity if all the people who have meta keys didn't get together and
agree on how they will be handled. I assume Common Lisp would not be
changed in a way that made it impossible to continue to support the bits
facility, for example, MAKE-CHAR would not be changed to add an optional
second argument that wasn't the bits.
Scott, perhaps you should write a formal cleanup proposal for this. Or
is not time yet.
These would be
replaced by a character standard that would allow for both extended
character sets and for implementation-specific character attributes
--
maybe fonts and bits, maybe something else, but unportable in any
event.
Any such wholesale re-thinking of characters must be coordinated
with
the Kanji standard from Japan, so it may not happen soon. KMP's
proposal is a useful patch in the meantime.
I'm more concerned that adding a new thing (character sets) be done
thoughtfully than I am about removing an old thing (fonts).
----- Next Message -----
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Date: Sun, 1 Mar 87 01:07 EST
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Sender: FAHLMAN@C.CS.CMU.EDU
From: "Scott E. Fahlman" <Fahlman@C.CS.CMU.EDU>
To: Kent M Pitman <KMP@SCRC-STONY-BROOK.ARPA>
Cc: CL-Cleanup@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU
Subject: SHARPSIGN-BACKSLASH-BITS
In-reply-to: Msg of 27 Feb 1987 19:51-EST from Kent M Pitman <KMP at
STONY-BROOK.SCRC.Symbolics.COM>
I support this proposal.
I think that we should seriously consider flushing both the bit and the
font attribute characters as part of the language spec. These would be
replaced by a character standard that would allow for both extended
character sets and for implementation-specific character attributes --
maybe fonts and bits, maybe something else, but unportable in any event.
Any such wholesale re-thinking of characters must be coordinated with
the Kanji standard from Japan, so it may not happen soon. KMP's
proposal is a useful patch in the meantime.
Spice Lisp currently accepts both short and long names, with the obvious
mapping, so we already comply with this proposal.
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Date: Tue, 3 Mar 87 12:59 EST
From: Guy Steele <gls@Think.COM>
Subject: SHARPSIGN-BACKSLASH-BITS
To: KMP@stony-brook.scrc.symbolics.com, CL-Cleanup@sail.stanford.edu
Cc: gls@think.com
In-Reply-To: <870227195124.0.KMP@RIO-DE-JANEIRO.SCRC.Symbolics.COM>
Message-Id: <870303125900.6.GLS@BOETHIUS.THINK.COM>
I support this proposal.
----- End Forwarded Messages -----
∂13-Oct-87 1153 BAGGINS@IBM.COM JEIDA on mailing list and JEIDA ack
Received: from IBM.COM by SAIL.STANFORD.EDU with TCP; 13 Oct 87 11:52:51 PDT
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 87 11:13:48 PDT
Sender: baggins@IBM.com
From: "Thomas Linden (Thom)" <baggins@IBM.com>
To: "X3J13: Character Subcommittee"
<cl-natural-languages@sail.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <871013.111348.baggins@IBM.com>
Subject: JEIDA on mailing list and JEIDA ack
In response to Larry's question, I believe there are no members
of JEIDA on the cl-natural-languages mailing list. In our
ack note to them we should mention this node to them specifically
as a contact point with our group.
Which reminds me, I wanted to send that message out. Please
provide any comments to my draft by end of day 15 Oct. I will
plan to send it on 16 Oct unless there are unresolved objections.
Below is the draft I sent earlier modified to include our mailing
node. Perhaps we should get the mailing node changed to
cl-character before advertising it?
-----Start Draft-----------------------------------------------
To: JEIDA Kanji Working Group
Masayuki Ida
Takayasu Ito, chair, JEIDA Committee for Lisp Standardization
Taiichi Yuasa, chair, JEIDA Technical Working Group for Lisp
Standardization
From: ANSI X3J13 Character Subcommittee
<cl-natural-languages@sail.stanford.edu>
The committee would like to acknowledge and applaud the efforts
of the JEIDA Kanji WG. The proposal, presented by Shiota-san at the
X3J13 June meeting in Boston, was so well received it
instigated the creation of our Subcommittee!
The subcommittee members are:
Thom Linden,chair (IBM Research)
Larry Masinter (XEROX Research)
Carl Hoffman (International Lisp Associates)
Bob Kerns (Symbolics)
Duncan Missimer (Hewlett-Packard)
Dave Matthews (Hewlett-Packard)
Mike Beckerle (Gold Hill)
Though, our committee will deal with various topics relating to
Common Lisp character support, the primary current topic will be
extensions to support the varied and multiple native character
sets. In particular, Common Lisp should be able to support
Kanji, Hanja, Hanzi, Chinese, German, French, etc. monolingual and
multilingual applications.
We have established a network distribution point for our committee
discussions: <cl-natural-languages@sail.stanford.edu>. Correspondence
from JEIDA and ISO on this subject area is invited.
We look forward to working with the newly formed JEIDA and ISO
committees on a language design which is supportive of the
international community requirements and which provides
for a consistency across varied implementations and machine
architectures in the spirit of CLtL.
-----End Draft-------------------------------------------------
Regards,
Thom
∂22-Oct-87 1622 Masinter.pa@Xerox.COM Re: Subcommittee name, scope, JEIDA response
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Date: 22 Oct 87 15:42 PDT
From: Masinter.pa@Xerox.COM
Subject: Re: Subcommittee name, scope, JEIDA response
In-reply-to: "Thomas Linden (Thom)" <baggins@ibm.com>'s message of Wed,
30 Sep 87 15:28:35 PDT
To: baggins@ibm.com
cc: cl-natural-languages@sail.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <871022-154330-5579@Xerox>
I dunno if I should have said so before, but it would be fine with me if
you sent that note out.
Is anybody else there besides us two?
∂22-Oct-87 1622 BAGGINS@IBM.COM JEIDA note
Received: from IBM.COM by SAIL.STANFORD.EDU with TCP; 22 Oct 87 16:20:43 PDT
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 87 16:09:35 PDT
Sender: baggins@IBM.com
From: "Thomas Linden (Thom)" <baggins@IBM.com>
To: Larry Masinter <masinter.pa@xerox.com>,
"X3J13: Character Subcommittee"
<cl-natural-languages@sail.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <871022.160935.baggins@IBM.com>
Subject: JEIDA note
Larry, thanks for the response. The netid's I had received for the
JEIDA folks were incorrect (I sent a test msg). Still working
on getting the right ones. It'll be sent asap.
Also, on a general committee note, I would like our group to
meet on Monday 16 Nov (the day designated for such meetings).
Please send your suggestions for a time as we need to ask for
a meeting room. I recommend we use the afternoon from 1:30 to
3:30pm. Does anyone have conflicts with other committee meetings
or travel problems?
Regards,
Thom
∂23-Oct-87 0819 RWK@YUKON.SCRC.Symbolics.COM Re: Subcommittee name, scope, JEIDA response
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Date: Fri, 23 Oct 87 11:18 EDT
From: Robert W. Kerns <RWK@YUKON.SCRC.Symbolics.COM>
Subject: Re: Subcommittee name, scope, JEIDA response
To: Masinter.pa@Xerox.COM
cc: baggins@ibm.com, cl-natural-languages@sail.stanford.edu
In-Reply-To: <871022-154330-5579@Xerox>
Message-ID: <19871023151854.0.RWK@WHITE-BIRD.SCRC.Symbolics.COM>
Date: 22 Oct 87 15:42 PDT
From: Masinter.pa@Xerox.COM
I dunno if I should have said so before, but it would be fine with me if
you sent that note out.
Is anybody else there besides us two?
I'm here again. I just got past a release deadline (with more work than
I expected), so I'll be resuming work on my proposal. Sorry for the
delay. I thought I had everything taken care of before I went on vacation,
but you know how it goes.
∂25-Oct-87 1822 @Riverside.SCRC.Symbolics.COM,@FUJI.ILA.Dialnet.Symbolics.COM,@F.ILA.Dialnet.Symbolics.COM,@ARAPAHOE.ILA.Dialnet.Symbolics.COM:CWH@F.ILA.Dialnet.Symbolics.COM Re: Subcommittee name, scope, JEIDA response
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Date: Sun, 25 Oct 87 21:21 EST
From: Carl W. Hoffman <CWH@FUJI.ILA.Dialnet.Symbolics.COM>
Subject: Re: Subcommittee name, scope, JEIDA response
To: CL-Natural-Languages@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU
cc: Moon@SYMBOLICS.COM
In-Reply-To: <19871023151854.0.RWK@WHITE-BIRD.SCRC.Symbolics.COM>
Message-ID: <871025212124.0.CWH@ARAPAHOE.ILA.Dialnet.Symbolics.COM>
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 87 11:18 EDT
From: Robert W. Kerns <RWK@YUKON.SCRC.Symbolics.COM>
I'm here again. I just got past a release deadline (with more work than
I expected), so I'll be resuming work on my proposal. Sorry for the
delay. I thought I had everything taken care of before I went on vacation,
but you know how it goes.
I'm here now also. I had thought that this committee had not yet gotten
started since I hadn't seen any of the mail sent to this list so far (as you
might have guessed since I didn't repond to either of the two requests for an
acknowledgement.) Anyway, I just recently discovered that the master
distribution list at SAIL contained a mail address for me which didn't work.
For future reference, anyone wishing to send mail to me should use the
following address:
CWH%ILA.Dialnet.Symbolics.COM@Symbolics.COM
I just finished reading the archive of the mail to this list to date, so I'll
respond to a few items.
I will not be able to attend the Characters Committee meeting at the November
X3J13 meeting since I will be in Tokyo for five weeks beginning November 9.
However, I will be reading mail (including mail to this list) while in Tokyo.
I also plan to meet with Prof. Ida, so if this group manages to form a
concensus around the end of November or early December, I may be able to
discuss it with him.
The message to JEIDA looked fine. I would have made a few minor changes, but
there's no point in mentioning them now.
There was some discussion of the issue of JEIDA members on the
CL-Natural-Languages mailing list. I can easily add Eiji Shiota to our local
redistribution list if no one objects.
I thought that Dave Moon was also going to be a member of the committee. When
I spoke with him briefly at the last X3J13 meeting, he outlined a radically
different approach to solving some of the character problems than the ones
I've seen presented so far. I think we should give careful attention to it.
∂28-Oct-87 1620 CL-Natural-Languages-mailer Issues for international languages
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Date: 28 Oct 87 16:18 PST
From: Masinter.pa@Xerox.COM
Subject: Issues for international languages
To: cl-natural-languages@Sail.stanford.edu
Message-ID: <871028-161844-3603@Xerox>
Here are some character issues:
What characters are alpha-char-p? graphic-char-p?
What does char-upcase do for non-Roman characters (Cyrillic? Greek? )
What is the proper handling of accents and accented characters? (As far
as I can tell, most standards treat the accent as a separate character.)
Should we (can we) define some procedures that preserve
language-dependent sort orders? (E.g., that German and Swedish sort
order for O-umlaut are different?)
∂30-Oct-87 1855 CL-Natural-Languages-mailer X3J13 Character Subcommittee formation
Received: from IBM.COM by SAIL.STANFORD.EDU with TCP; 30 Oct 87 18:55:26 PST
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 87 15:51:52 PST
From: Thom Linden <baggins@ibm.com>
To: "Dr. Masayuki Ida" <a37078%tansei.u-tokyo.junet@relay.cs.net>,
"Dr. Takayasu Ito" <ito%aoba.aoba.tohoku.junet@relay.cs.net>,
"Dr. Taiichi Yuasa" <yuasa%tutics.tut.junet@relay.cs.net>
cc: "X3J13: Character Subcommittee"
<cl-natural-languages@sail.stanford.edu>,
"Robert F. Mathis" <mathis@Ada20.isi.edu>
Message-ID: <871030.155152.baggins@IBM.com>
Subject: X3J13 Character Subcommittee formation
The X3J13 committee would like to acknowledge and applaud the efforts
of the JEIDA Kanji WG. The proposal for multi-byte character extensions
presented by Shiota-san at the X3J13 June meeting in Boston, was
so well received it instigated the creation of a new subcommittee!
The subcommittee members are:
Thom Linden,chair (IBM Research)
Larry Masinter (XEROX Research)
Carl Hoffman (International Lisp Associates)
Bob Kerns (Symbolics)
Duncan Missimer (Hewlett-Packard)
Dave Matthews (Hewlett-Packard)
Mike Beckerle (Gold Hill)
Though our subcommittee will deal with various topics relating to
Common Lisp character support, the primary current topic will be
extensions to support the varied and multiple native character
sets. In particular, Common Lisp should be able to support
Kanji, Hanja, Hanzi, Chinese, German, French, etc. monolingual and
multilingual applications.
We have established a network distribution point for our subcommittee
discussions: <cl-natural-languages@sail.stanford.edu>. Correspondence
from JEIDA and ISO on this subject area is invited.
We look forward to working with the newly formed JEIDA and ISO
committees on a language design which is supportive of the
international community requirements and which provides
for a consistency across varied implementations and machine
architectures in the spirit of CLtL.
∂30-Oct-87 1856 CL-Natural-Languages-mailer 16 Nov subcommittee meeting
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Date: Fri, 30 Oct 87 15:57:30 PST
From: Thom Linden <baggins@ibm.com>
To: "X3J13: Character Subcommittee"
<cl-natural-languages@sail.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <871030.155730.baggins@IBM.com>
Subject: 16 Nov subcommittee meeting
I've asked for a room to be reserved for our meeting from
1:30 to 3:30 on 16 Nov. As soon as I'm told of a room number,
I'll pass it along.
Regards,
Thom
∂30-Oct-87 2013 CL-Natural-Languages-mailer Subcommittee report
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Date: Fri, 30 Oct 87 17:12:43 PST
From: Thom Linden <baggins@ibm.com>
To: "Robert F. Mathis" <mathis@Ada20.isi.edu>
cc: "X3J13: Character Subcommittee"
<cl-natural-languages@sail.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <871030.171243.baggins@IBM.com>
Subject: Subcommittee report
Bob,
Please reserve some time on your agenda at Fort Collins for
our subcommittee report. I expect 1/2 hr will be sufficient.
Regards,
Thom